Multiply Your Success with Dr. Tom DuFore

310. Stop Measuring the Wrong Things for Marketing ROI—Jeff Greenfield

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Do you ever wonder if you are wasting money on your marketing efforts? Or how do you navigate today’s big changes in paid marketing? Our guest today is Jeff Greenfield, and he shares with us his marketing insights and the changing paid advertising landscape. 

TODAY'S WIN-WIN:
Aspire to be less wrong today than you were yesterday as there is no right answer to measurement. 

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ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Jeff Greenfield is an entrepreneur, advisor, and disruptor with more than three decades of leadership in strategy, growth, and marketing. He is the Co-Founder and CEO of Provalytics, an AI-driven, cookie-less attribution and measurement platform that helps marketers prove the impact of upper funnel channels such as CTV and podcasts to drive smarter budget decisions. 

Previously, Jeff was the COO and Co-Founder of C3 Metrics, a leading multi-touch attribution platform serving brands such as JP Morgan, US Bank, Hertz, Nestlé, Carhartt, Edward Jones, Fender, and Peapod. Widely known as the “Cookie Monster,” Jeff is a recognized expert on cookies and their impact on the digital advertising ecosystem.

Jeff has spoken at hundreds of industry conferences and his thought leadership has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, ABC, CBS, and Investor’s Business Daily.

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Welcome And The Marketing Problem

Tom DuFore

Welcome to the Multiply Your Success podcast, where each week we help growth-minded entrepreneurs and franchise leaders take the next step in their expansion journey. I'm your host, Tom Dufour, CEO of Big Sky franchise team. As we open today, do you ever wonder if you are wasting money on your marketing efforts? Or how do you navigate today's big changes in paid marketing? Well, our guest today is Jeff Greenfield, and he shares with us his marketing insights and information on the changing paid advertising landscape. Now, Jeff is an entrepreneur, advisor, and disruptor with more than three decades of leadership in strategy, growth, and marketing. He's the co-founder and CEO of Provolitics, an AI-driven cookie-less attribution and measurement platform that helps marketers prove the impact of upper funnel channels such as CTV and podcasts to drive smarter budget decisions. Now, Jeff has spoken at hundreds of industry conferences and has taught leadership and has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, ABC, CBS, and the Investors Business Daily. You're going to love this interview, so let's go ahead and jump right into it. Sure, I'm Jeff Greenfield. I'm CEO and co-founder of Provolytics. I'm so excited to have you on the show. And we were talking pre-show a little bit about this. You have some really interesting topics to talk about. And one in particular is why marketing lacks a single source of truth. And I just bring that up because I've been in business long enough, and I'm sure the listeners have too, where sometimes marketers try to boil things down to one single thing or one, you know, one number or metric to rule them all. And so I'd love for you just to share a little insight on that.

Jeff Greenfield

As marketing has developed and as we've grown into this digital ecosystem, we have more places to spend our marketing dollars, things have just gotten very confusing and difficult. I mean, if we go back and think about like, let's say all you're doing is you do a mailer to everybody's home in your area and there's a coupon in there. And if that's the only marketing you're doing whatsoever, that's really simple because you can count the number of coupons that come in and you can figure out what your ROI is on that. Totally, totally simple. But let's say you also have a big billboard that's up. And then let's also say that you're also advertising ads on Meta, like Facebook and Instagram. So somebody walks in with a coupon. Well, is that sale due to the coupon? Or did they happen to drive by the billboard every day? Or do they see the ad on Meta and Instagram? Or do they see all of them? Or maybe none of them and just the coupon? You don't really know. And that's that's the problem is that if you start to go to each of these places where you spend money and you go into like Meta, it'll tell you how many people clicked. If you have an online service that people can sign up on it, it'll tell you how many things that they brought you. But Facebook doesn't know that you're running a billboard. Facebook doesn't know that you have coupons in the mail. So everybody has their own version of the truth. And if you've ever done this at scale, it let's say at the end of the month you had a thousand sales, and then you go to each of these places where you spent money and you add up how many sales they got you, it'll probably say five to six times as many sales as you actually had. And this is the problem is that there is no single source of truth. You have all these different versions who say, Hey, I got you these sales, somebody else saying, Hey, I got you these sales. And you would think, well, this is a small business problem. Larger companies, they have sophisticated platforms for dealing with this. And what I can tell you is I just got off of a call with a global chief marketing officer for a very large international corporation. And the reality is that they have this exact same problem, except it's at a much larger scale. And you say to yourself, well, why wouldn't they just switch it out? There's solutions out there like mine and others that could solve this. And it's because marketing and measurement, marketing measurement is a foundational piece of an organization. When you start to have teams that deal with this stuff, there's bonuses, there's team sizes, there's divisions. And changing the way you measure impacts the whole organization. So it's not as simple as just replacing it, it's a big deal. But what ends up happening, regardless of how large or small you are, there's different versions of the truth. And a lot of us just we cross our eyes when we look at it, but you end up having to somehow or another, on your own, triangulate to figure out okay, am I at least moving in the right direction?

When Marketing Numbers Fail Finance

Tom DuFore

At a certain time or point, there are some metrics that help indicate if you're moving in the right direction. Like you mentioned, coupons collected or customers coming in and cashing them in, or maybe it might be new appointments set or number of new leads or new inquiries, or some of these metrics that kind of help lead us to say, I think we're heading in the right direction, or maybe not. You're talking about that chief marketing officer of a global brand that you know, they're trying to wrap their heads around a measure of success. But then there's also the financial piece of this, right? At a big company, you're gonna large organization, you're gonna have a CFO for a small to mid-sized business, might be the founder that's kind of CMO and CFO and trying to gauge where's my money well spent, or where am I seeing this return on investment? So, how do you see this when marketing math doesn't quite measure up with reconciliation and budgets?

Jeff Greenfield

That's one of the other big problems is that it's interesting because most of us that are in marketing, we got into marketing because we wanted to be the person that comes in with the big idea. You know, the company's having an issue, and we walk in and and you say, yellow squirrel, and everyone goes, Oh my god, yellow squirrel, that's it. That'll change the fortune of the company. And then you leave and you cast the big check, and they only call you in where there's some big issue. You know, you want to be a creative person. But the reality about marketing today is that we actually spend more time in spreadsheets than our friends who are accountants. We spend more time with math because we're downloading all of this data. The problem is that just like the the situation where I talked about, where there's no single source of truth, when we go to add these all up and we walk into finance and we talk to them, our numbers don't equal the numbers that they have. And then finance gets this opinion like marketers, they don't know how to add. And the reality is, we're using Excel, okay? It adds up automatically for us. It's just that our data is wrong. And that's the issue. I'll give you an example. Let's let's use an example of like, let's say a gym where most people today they go and they sign up online first before they come in. You're running ads for the gym, you're running it both on Meta and you're running it on Facebook, Instagram, and Google. And let's say it's cool, it's a new concept gym. So there's a cool video, and then it's got a cool name so that when you Google the name, people will find it. Okay, and your ad is there. So somebody goes through and they scroll through their Facebook feed as people go through real fast. They see the video, it stops them. It does the job of marketing, it gets their attention, but they don't watch the video, they don't click, they don't do anything, but we have their attention. So they keep scrolling. A week or two later, they're scrolling along on Instagram, they see it again. Now they watch the whole thing and they say, hmm, you know, I do need to get back to the gym when I'm ready to go. This is the place I'm gonna go. A couple weeks later, they're outside and they're feeling their back is a little sore, and they're like, you know, I need to get to that gym. What was the name of that? They take out their phone, they Google the name, and then they sign up right there. So the owner of the gym, they're gonna say they got a new lead that came in, a new sign-up. And it's gonna say that it came from Google. Great. So now multiply that by a thousand times over the month, and they're gonna say, My God, I wasted so much money on Facebook and Instagram. They're gonna take all that money and they're gonna move it to Google, and they're gonna not gonna notice a difference right away because it took time for that person to go through that sales funnel. But two or three months later, they're gonna be like, oh my God, what happened to all of my sales? Well, what happened is they cut off the top of the funnel, they cut off the attention. They're now only advertising where people know their name. So they cut off the attention, they cut off that awareness. That's also one of the big discrepancies. But in that situation, that marketer is following the numbers, but the numbers are leading them in the wrong direction. That's where things get very confusing in the digital world today.

The Cookie Less Shift And Silos

Tom DuFore

That's a great, great comment. And one of the things that you had mentioned and talked about in some of my preparation for this, coupling with that, to add what sounds to me like is going to be another challenge, is this cookie-less world. So I don't mean to keep pounding the issues here, but this was news to me when I just read it in getting prepared for this. So, what are some of the impacts you see coming from this?

Jeff Greenfield

Yeah, so there's two types of cookies. There's the cookie that allows you when you just go to Amazon.com and it automatically logs you in. That's called a first-party cookie. That cookie, the Amazon cookie, only works at Amazon. It's not a tracking cookie, but the other types of cookies are tracking cookies. Those are the ones so that if you're running ads, and let's say one of the things with advertising is you don't want to beat people over the head with your ads. You don't want them to see a thousand ads a day. And so what'll happen is like a company like Volvo, they're running ads. And if you happen to go to the New York Times and you see their ad, it'll it'll send back an image, information that says, hey, Tom's seen one ad. So now when you go to another page, it says Tom sees two ads. And by the time you get to five, it says, okay, Tom's cut off for the rest of the day. No more Volvo ads. So it it controls that counting that's there. But it also lets them know how you're kind of progressing along throughout their funnel and allows them to track you everywhere. Well, consumers don't really like that. And with all the privacy changes, most of that has gone away, especially in the iOS Apple environment. There's no more cookies there in terms of tracking. And the other thing as well is that places like all the apps where we spend our time: Facebook, Instagram, Amazon, all of these shopping places like Walmart, they don't allow these outside tracking cookies. They're like their own little internet. And so what that means is that from both a targeting perspective, how you target people, you can target effectively at Facebook, but that person that you targeted at Facebook, you're not going to be able to necessarily find them, let's say, when they're on the New York Times, because the New York Times and Facebook aren't talking to each other. But they used to years ago, but not anymore. And that's become the issue. The issue also, along with that, is well, if they're not talking to each other, how do I measure what I'm spending at the New York Times versus Facebook if they're not talking to each other? And that also becomes a problem because you used to be able to do this. So we've moved from this world where we could track users across everything that they did across the entire internet to now we're not tracking individuals anymore. We're we've kind of had to pan the camera back and look at the big broad strokes. But that's actually a win for marketers because we've had 20 years of being able to track and target really, really, really deep. And here's the little secret: what we found out is that as marketers spent more money down at the lower part of the funnel, where they said, my customer likes to do this, this, and this. So we're we're buying ads, but we're hyper-targeting them. Well, every time you add a targeting criteria, the ad cost more. And what we found is that a lot of advertisers, yes, they were winning business, but it ended up not being profitable because they were spending so much money to acquire that customer. And this is not just small businesses, this is large businesses as well. That's why you're starting to see a lot of these bigger companies like Airbnb and others, they're not down at that lower part anymore. They're doing more branding, branding, these ads that that make you feel good about the brand. That's kind of the new growth lane these days. So it's we're kind of living in a world of back to the future, if you will.

Tom DuFore

Well, that's very interesting. So brands are moving more toward kind of middle or top of funnel as opposed to focusing in on some of the down funnel marketing. Is that what you're saying?

Jeff Greenfield

That's exactly what I'm saying. Because here's the deal when someone is ready to make a decision, when they're down in that lower part of the funnel, there's this concept of brand preference. Think about it. You go to search for any brand that you know, their competitors are always there. You go to Amazon and you go to search for a brand, their competitors are there, Walmart.com. Anytime you search for any brand, the competitors are right there. That's the way digital marketing works. But when a consumer has made aware of you and feels good about you from upper and mid-funnel marketing, and we're and we're not talking about ads that say, hey, buy our stuff, we're the cheapest. Hey, buy our stuff because here's the benefits. It's more like, hey, here we are, these ads that are like, hey, we love you, you should love us, the ads that make you feel good, you know, because they're not trying to sell you. When you get down and you're ready to make a decision and you type in a brand name or a category and you see that brand that you felt good about, that's the brand that you go for. That's what all the research has shown. That's what our data shows as well. Too. So brand preference is increased exponentially by that upper funnel kind of feel-good advertising, if you will.

Tom DuFore

It makes me think a little bit about things we do, podcasts and other kinds of top-of-funnel activities that maybe are hard to measure. You know, how do these kinds of marketing activities factor into this?

Measure Attention With Impressions

Jeff Greenfield

I mean, well, I know we're kind of plotting around all these different avenues, but just to add into the mix here, you know, it's really fascinating because if we just step back a little bit, we're living in an amazing time. Because what's happened is that all of the advertising that was upper funnel, which was historically TV, radio, and let's say billboards, was stuff that as a business owner, you would have to plan months in advance. You know, think about like getting a billboard put up. You'd have to have it designed, sized, and then put up. It would take months. TV ad cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars. Then it has to get approved by the network. I mean, and same thing is with radio ads. These were always a lot of work. I remember because I was a small business owner many years ago, and I've done all of them, and they they were a hassle. Today, as a small business owner, you can have an ad made, you can hire someone on fiber or hell, you can go into Google Gemini and make a TV ad within minutes with AI, and then you can actually put it live on the number one TV network in the US today. Most people don't know the number one TV network is YouTube. I'm not talking watching on the mobile phone, I'm talking on the big screen. It is, it has more viewers than NBC CVS or Fox. I mean, it is the number one TV network. And for radio, the number one audio networks is podcast advertising, which you can also go live with and minutes as well. So we're living in an amazing time for small to even large business owners to be able to get out there and get their word out and upper funnel, which used to take months and millions of dollars to do. The problem is that most businesses are measuring digital marketing efforts using Google Analytics 4, which is primarily click-based. And what I mean by that is that it measures clicks. It does measure impressions for YouTube because they own YouTube. So it's important to remember that GA4, even though it's an acronym, it's measuring Google's products. But there's no tab in there for other TV networks. There's no tab in there for podcasts or for billboards, digital out of home at all. And that's that's the issue. But be enabling those things are great. But the key to measuring that impact is to back away from clicks and look at what is driving attention. And that's all about impressions, which is how many ads you've got going on out there every single day.

Tom DuFore

Of course, the natural question is trying to think of okay, so what do we do about this? You know, how do we try to wrangle all of this information? We've got these silos, we're compartmentalizing, we're trying to do our best to analyze it. And as you mentioned, this is from small business struggling all the way up to these chief global marketing officers that you're having conversations with, all struggling with these same types of things. So, what do we do about it? You know, how do you kind of help take the information? Because we have no lack of data. There's no lack of information.

Jeff Greenfield

What do you do? Well, first off, the first thing that folks should do, especially small business owners, is you're right. We have too much data. The problem is we're looking at the wrong stuff. Most business owners that are running their own marketing, or if you have somebody who's running your marketing for you, chances are they have a Google Sheet, and in that Google sheet is every single day of the year, how much money you spent, how many clicks you got, how many leads or sales that came in, and they're calculating the cost per click and stuff like that. Because it makes sense. If you look at if everything you're doing is on a website and you say, okay, I get sales for my leads, I get leads for my website, and leads come from clicks. So the secret here is for me to buy more ads for things that are driving clicks. But the reality is that we are missing the big picture. So if we pan back a bit and we understand, and that example that I gave where we were talking about uh the gym that was advertising on Meta and Google, those ads that drove that awareness and stuff, they were not driving any clicks whatsoever. So as you step back and understand that the way marketing works, its job is to get attention, drive awareness. And when awareness is built up enough, people will walk into your store. If your store happens to be online, those are clicks, and then that's where you get your leads and sales from. So that's the clicks are down at the bottom. So when you downloaded that data for that Google sheet, there was in that sheet a column that represented attention, which is where you want to look. Chances are you didn't know what to do with it, so you got rid of it. So I'm gonna ask you if you're listening and you're a small business owner, the most important thing you can do after listening to this, take that Google sheet for the last year, and it's gonna be a pain, but recreate it and add that column back for attention. It's called impressions. Impressions represent how many ads each day were shown. And so what you want to do is once you have that built out, take those impressions by day and graph them and excel. It's like a two-second operation. And then you want to create another graph right next to it for clicks, and then another one right next to it for leads, and then push your chair back and get the big picture. Look at the big picture because what you want to look at is the days when clicks were high. I want you to look at that same day in impressions. I'll guarantee you that the impressions probably weren't high that day, but they were high a couple of days before, or even a week or two before. Those are the days where you want to dig in and you want to see what did I do on those days and do more of that. Now, the reason that is is because there's three impacts from advertising. Clicks only picks up one of the three. It picks up what we call the immediate impact, the stuff that happened today. Okay. There's another impact we call the Super Bowl effect. And that is you run a big Super Bowl ad. Now there's a ton of people who are going to check out your website, but not everybody's gonna buy today. And some people will remember your name, but they're not leaving the game. They're not gonna check out your website, but they will check it out maybe a week, maybe a month, maybe three months later. Every ad has that capability. Somebody sees it, it gets attention, and then later on they act. It the technical term for that is carryover. So you're missing out on all that carryover. So leads you have today and clicks from today are from ads you ran today and ads you ran yesterday, the day before, and weeks and months before. The third impact is called synergies. When you run multiple media together, it's like a multiplier one plus one equals seven. So clicks, you're only seeing that one tiny aspect of it, and that leads people to make wrong decisions. So put out those impressions and get that big picture. That's what I would recommend for any business owner who's running marketing themselves or as a small marketing team, without a doubt.

Tom DuFore

You know, I'd be remiss if I didn't at least bring up how this whole AI stuff is coming in. I was sitting here thinking, we talk about all these other avenues and yet didn't mention AI and AI search and how all this plays into this situation.

AI Finds Signal In Micro Experiments

Jeff Greenfield

Well, AI is what's enabled us to do all this stuff at scale. The gold standard of how you know advertising is actually working and is what we call incremental, meaning you want to buy ads that actually bring you leads you wouldn't have gotten without advertising. That's a whole idea. So let's say you wanna, let's say you want to see will a billboard make a difference? You've never run billboards before. So you decide, because you're in Atlanta, Tom, let's decide what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna put up a huge billboard in Buckhead, neighborhood outside of Atlanta. Okay, and I'm gonna have it up there for three months. And what I do is then I start to look and see how many leads came in from that buckhead area. And I'm gonna compare it to like another area of town where there is no billboard. And what I should see if billboards are working, I'll see that the number of leads that came in from Buckhead are up at a huge percentage compared to everywhere else in the city or another city similar to it. Okay. That's the gold standard. But what we can do with AI is, and that's running what we call an experiment. Well, we don't have to run experiments because our digital data is already moving along at a different pace. Even if we're only spending $100 a day, it delivers a different volume of ads every day because everything is on a bid basis. So if you look at the number of ads per day, it goes up and down, up and down, up and down. And if you look at everything, but it's so small, these are tiny, tiny experiments. So tiny that a human being can't figure out if it's making a difference or not. But guess what? AI can. So AI is able to go in and look at the tens of thousands of micro experiments that are naturally occurring and the ads that we're buying every single month and figure out what's working, what's not working, how much more we can spend on one item versus another. It's just absolutely amazing.

Tom DuFore

What's a great way for someone to get in touch with you, learn more about what you're doing and what you're offering?

Jeff Greenfield

Yeah, well, they can go to provolytics.com. You can just go also as well to get prova. That's G-E-T, P-R-O-V-A. Prova means proof in Italian. For folks that are in the marketing world, you know exactly what it's all about. You got to prove every day that what you're doing is actually working. That's what Provolytics is all about. Uh, you can also find me on LinkedIn as well.

Tom DuFore

Perfect. And we'll make sure we include those links in the show notes to make it easy for someone to connect with. And Jeff, this is a great time in the show here where we make a transition. We ask every guest the same four questions before they go. And the first question we ask is have you had a miss or two on your journey and something you learned from it?

Jeff Greenfield

I'd say my biggest, my biggest miss with my last company was working 24-7, 365 and letting life move by without enjoying it at the same time. I always try to tell other founders that today may be the best day that your company's ever gonna have. So you got to make sure that you're paying yourself enough, that you're giving yourself enough time for yourself and for your family, and that you're enjoying it as well. I'll never forget the first time that I took a couple of nights off for I think it was an anniversary or my birthday. And I first time I turned my phone off ever when I went away. And we were only driving like two hours north up in Maine, and I turned the phone off. It was like ceremonial doing it. And my wife watched me yawn several thousand times as we went up there, and we had a great weekend. But the first night with my phone off, I slept 13 hours. So my big miss was missing enjoyment from life and trying to think that you know you can charge as fast as you want through this and force your way through it. You you can't, you can actually cut your speed by 50 or you know, 50% and still get there in pretty much the same time, but you can enjoy things along the way even more so.

Tom DuFore

Thank you for sharing. That's great. Well, let's look at the other side. Let's talk about a win or a highlight, a make or two.

Jeff Greenfield

Yeah, a win for me was coming up with this concept for provolytics. You know, I had exited my other company right before the pandemic, spent 12 years with my previous company scaling it up in the same business, and I was done. You know, I had exited, I was all set. I said, I'm never gonna go back to measurement. And then I saw privacy came in and essentially destroy my old company. I was gone from it, but I was like, wow, you know, this problem is coming around again, and people are not gonna have a solution. So I was able to kind of borrow from the past before digital marketing and marry it together with AI and create this kind of very new and exciting approach to dealing with this problem that marketers have dealt with for years, which is, you know, half the money I spend in marketing is wasted. The only problem is I don't know which half. And so for me, this is exciting to come back into an industry that I did enjoy, but I thought I would be gone from with a new approach that is solving a problem at a much greater scale.

Tom DuFore

Well, let's talk about a multiplier. The name of the show is multiply your success. Have you used a multiplier to grow yourself personally, professionally, or organizations you've run?

Jeff Greenfield

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. A good friend of mine, Christopher, he calls my multiplier scalers. Because, you know, I've been in this industry for a very long time. And, you know, I end up being involved with most of our clients early on and all throughout the sales process. And I've tried to bring other people in to do it, but you know, I'm kind of the person, I'm the face of the company. And so my best multiplier has been hiring someone who's who's acted as my scaler. And this company, it's it's Zoe. She's phenomenal, but she handles everything. She makes sure I get on the calls, handles most of the communication, enables me to deal with the stuff that I'm great at, and then takes care of everything else. That's what I found is my biggest multiplier is being able to scale myself by doing the stuff I'm really good at and then the stuff that I can turn over, have someone else handle.

Tom DuFore

Wonderful. And the final question we ask every guest is what does success mean to you?

Founder Lessons Personal Wins And Meaning

Jeff Greenfield

Success for me is all about enjoying myself and having fun, you know? And it's making certain that I divide my time up to make sure I'm giving myself time personally to reflect on my day, to think about just me and life, but also focus on my clients, focus on the company, but also most importantly, spend time with my family and with my wife. Because otherwise, the journey doesn't matter. That's what success to me is all about. Success for me is not about retiring. You know, what do they say? You know, you retire, you expire. I just want to keep enjoying and having fun.

Tom DuFore

Well, and as we bring this to a close, Jeff, is there anything you were hoping to share or get across that you haven't had a chance to yet?

Jeff Greenfield

No, I think the most important thing is for most people to understand that there is no right answer to measurement. But, you know, all of the approaches that you use are going to be wrong because we haven't been able to drill into people's brains and figure out exactly why people make the decisions they make. But you should aspire to be less wrong today than you were yesterday. That's really the approach. If you accept the fact that you're going to be wrong, just accept the fact that you want to aspire to be less wrong. That's really the key.

Tom DuFore

Jeff, thank you so much for a fantastic interview. And let's go ahead and jump into today's three key takeaways. So, takeaway number one is when he talked about the cookie less world that we're living in, where tracking cookies and ads across the broad spectrum of the internet, how this has greatly diminished and is going away. And he said that companies like Amazon and Facebook and others are their own unique advertising platform. So you actually have to run marketing in different silos. And he said this is the new way of digital marketing. And it's actually what he described as kind of a throwback to pre-internet marketing days when you might be running ads in newspapers or magazines and thinking back to mailing postcards or coupons and trying to make sense of all these individual silo pieces. And so he said that the down funnel today just costs a lot more and brand preference is becoming more and more important. Takeaway number two is he talked about living in a great time where top-of-funnel stuff like TV, radio, billboard, ads like this are much more affordable to produce in a much shorter time period. And for most of us, we can advertise on what he described as the number one TV network today, which is YouTube. It has many, many, many more viewers than traditional television would. And takeaway number three is when he talked about three impacts of advertising. He said there are clicks, which create impact today, carry over, and that's think about like a Super Bowl ad where somebody sees your ad and then it carries over to maybe the next day or a few days or a few weeks down the line. And then synergies, where you're running multiple campaigns at the same time to generate leads or interest or awareness in what's going on. So I think that this was great. And he said to take a look at these three different advertising components at clicks and to look also at leads and all these things and overlay them to help give you a better total picture. And now it's time for today's win-win. So today's win-win comes at the end of the episode when he talked about there is no right way to measure, there's no specific right way for measurement. And he said the target goal is really to aspire to be less wrong today than you were yesterday. I thought that was great closing and great advice. And for all of us in marketing to aspire to be less wrong today than you were yesterday. So take a little bit more bit of information and discern and use that and add more pieces in to help you over time continue to make better decisions. And so that's the episode today, folks. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast and give us a review. And remember, if you or anyone you know might be ready to franchise their business or take their franchise company to the next level, please connect with us at Big Sky Franchise team to schedule your free, no obligation consultation. Thanks for tuning in, and we look forward to having you back next week.

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Tom DuFore

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